Interview with David Rasnick, PhD, former protease drug developer for the pharmaceutical industry, and bio-chemist who worked with HIV using electron- microscopy (EM,) in military court cases for the defense, which ended HIV convictions in the military, (in cases where the defendants were accused of exposing partners to “HIV.”) 57 men were either released from prison or charges dropped due to the work Dr. Rasnick and the legal team he worked with did. He is also the co-developer of Dr. Peter H. Duesberg’s aneuploidy theory of cancer, and the author of the forthcoming book: Elephants In The Lab: A Personal Odyssey Into The Essence of Cancer.
Interview by Celia Farber
CF: I’ve been contacted about this “Novel Corona virus” over the last few days. Apparently somebody has published a paper asserting that there are 4 HIV proteins in the (Wuhan) coronavirus’ genome. First, tell us, if you would, where and how you acquired your knowledge of HIV.
DR: Well I’m a chemist. Back in the 1980s I was designing drugs for arthritis, emphysema [missing word] and cancer in San Francisco and that’s where the AIDS nonsense started. By “nonsense” I mean the belief that it’s infectious, caused by a virus– actually that was done in Washington D. C. You and I know that very well.
So I started looking into it like everybody else because it was the “plague of the decade” I guess and I was a young hot shot scientist in those days and we all wanted to cure AIDS. We found that it was just bogus is it could be. AIDS is not contagious. HIV is a laboratory artifact. Nobody’s ever observed or found it in any human being contrary to what people believe. There is no such thing as a “viral load” for HIV.
CF: If somebody were to say “but you’re not virologist, you haven’t handled HIV, so called, in the lab…” and so forth. You’ve studied it more than most people have, maybe even compared to those who have “worked” with it, because you’ve studied it critically. Not as a funded HIV researcher.
DR: Yeah and in fact, it’s the outsiders have the best chance of actually finding out what’s going on because we have no vested interest.
DR: I didn’t have the biases.
CF: Before we get to the comparisons with novel Corona virus… when you say that H. I. V. has never been found in human blood, what do you mean by that and how did you find that out?
DR: As it turns out I want to make a little update about my C. V. I actually have worked with HIV here in the last couple years. Not growing it but doing electron microscopy of it provided at the university of Massachusetts..
CF: Oh so you’re an HIV researcher now!
DR: Yes. So we did electron microscopy on it. We could see those nice little particles and then we spiked it into blood that had no HIV and sure enough we could see those beautiful little particles in the blood plasma showing that if the HIV–what people call HIV– if it were in in fact in the blood you could see it. People have been trying to do just that since the 1990s and nobody’s ever succeeded in finding any HIV viral particles in any human sample. Not only in blood plasma but in any tissue .
And so there’s no evidence whatever that this laboratory thing called HIV which you can actually purchase, has ever been present in a human being.
CF: But the whole the world has for decades been obsessed with who “has” it and who doesn’t “have” it so… what are they referring to when they say “I have the virus,” or, “I tested positive for the virus?” Just break that down for us.
DR: Well first of all people have to understand that the whole concept of HIV is not a scientific fact by any means, it’s a government policy. It has been since April 23, 1984. The government of the United States declared that AIDS was contagious and caused by a retrovirus which eventually came to be called HIV This is before any scientist outside of Robert Gallo at the National Cancer Institute had ever heard anything about it. There’s no publication whatsoever on this. It was just declared by the U. S. government that that’s the way it is and with the might of U. S. government behind it, the CDC and these other institutions, it just became dogma. Unquestionable dogma.
CF: Robert Gallo of course held his famous press conference April…
DR: April 23
CF:…April 23rd, 1984. He was flanked by Margaret Heckler.. and I’m not sure who else was standing up there. They had some numbers and they had to laboratory evidence that we later found out tampered with.. so let’s talk about what they really had. How many of the samples showed any evidence of what we now call HIV, back there in the beginning?
DR: Well there’s none even there. (Laughs) Did you know that of all the, God I guess it’s close to half a million isolates of HIV, they keep track of this at the Los Alamos National Laboratory, bits and pieces of the genetic material of HIV–but did you know there’s only a single HIV that’s ever been cultured anywhere in the world, in all the laboratories? They go by 3 different names and they’re all the variations of the same thing of this virus that came from Robert Gallo’s lab which is an artifact of cell culture, where he mixed human samples with a leukemia cell line that produced some viral particles that to this day have never been observed in any human being but only in the laboratory, and it’s called HIV and that’s the only HIV that exists anyplace in the world.
CF: When you say “only in the laboratory”– so okay, so Gallo patented and the first HIV antibody test the day after or maybe the day before the press conference so he now has an “HIV test” waiting in the wings. So that “HIV test” was set up to do what exactly?
DR: Right okay ,what he did was he generated antibodies against his little Frankenstein virus—I say Frankenstein because it was basically constructed in his lab. And he was able to generate antibodies to that showing that you could have an antibody reaction with those proteins from those viral particles , then take those viral particles, grow them in the lab, and then mix them with somebody’s blood to see if they had the antibodies it reacted with.
So the so called antibody test for HIV is not a test for HIV. If it’s anything it’s a test for a person’s antibodies that would react with those viral particles that Robert Gallo produced.
CF: What were Robert Gallo’s viral particles, and why were they germane to the condition that was then called AIDS and is still called AIDS?
DR: Well like I said, once they declared that AIDS was contagious, caused by a virus, one of Robert Gallo’s retroviruses, the government was committed at that point, and still is to this day, to that dogma. They cannot be challenged at all. So anything that you come up with like an antibody test or a viral load test that you say is a test for HIV– people just accept it is that. Seriously though, the FDA, the Food and Drug Administration, does not allow the test to be used that way, although it’s used that way all the time. The inserts that come with all the so called H. I. V. testing– antibody test, the Western Blot, the Viral Load test, explicitly say in there but these tests are not designed nor intended to be used to detect the presence of HIV or AIDS.
They’re not supposed to be used that way because they’ve never been demonstrated to do that in human beings. They’re very clear in their language. The reason, they say, is because there’s no reference standard. A reference standard is the virus itself.
CF: So it starts with Luc Montagnier and his team at the Pasteur Institute and they “have something.” They have blood from sick individuals. I assume they were gay men who are very sick with this new syndrome. So Montagnier sent some samples to Gallo and said “Hey what do you think of this?”
DR: Montagnier could not culture a virus. He could not culture a virus from the samples so he sent the samples to Robert Gallo who also could not culture any virus in human T cells. So Robert Gallo, what he did was, he took the same samples and he mixed them with leukemia cells and finally was able to generate some retroviral particles that now we call HIV.
CF: So in all of that soup mixing, they settled upon some antibodies that were said to signal HIV according to the US government and Robert Gallo in April of 1984, right?
DR: Yeah I mean I don’t know all the details but that’s it in a nutshell.
CF: And then the first HIV test was launched and then were several more to follow–that’s a whole discussion– how many tests and the different standards in different countries but let’s just.. I still need to hammer this home because people will be very shocked to hear this. It’s almost impossible to fathom that they never had a virus. One more time: What did they have instead? What would you call what Gallo and Montagnier had?
DR: I’d call it a laboratory artifact. It’s something that was created in the laboratory when Robert Gallo mixed Luc Montagnier’s [sample] with a human leukemia cell line, and these leukemia cell lines are frequently known to be contaminated or infected with retroviruses. So my guess is that it had some sort of fusion going on between those leukemia cells that he added to the material from Luc Montagnier and generated new viral particles. I mean..that happens. It happens in the lab.
CF: And then once he had done that they built an antibody test. And the as far as the world knew it was a test for the virus.
DR: That’s right.
CF: What was it actually?
DR: Well if I can just be frank, it’s a fraud. It’s not a test for HIV at all. And the inserts like I say…
CF: Because HIV was never… what’s the right words..”purified” “isolated” “found”– how would you describe it?
DR: Yeah. Well it’s never found in a human being. Again I have to go back in and say that they had to have a test that people could use to say that somebody either was infected with HIV or was not infected with HIV irrespective of whether it was true. Because, you know, since 1984 it was government policy that a person that has AIDS is infected with HIV and they don’t have AIDS if they’re not infected with HIV. And to this day there’s no test to determine whether that’s true or not so they use these bogus tests, these antibody tests, the viral load tests that also do not test for HIV but people were able to get away with it because AIDS– I don’t know if people know this– is a trillion dollar business. All told, after over almost four decades.
CF: Let’s flash forward for a moment to the present day Corona scare. People are alleged to be dropping on the streets in various parts of China . Just falling down. And they’re videotaping this… now I don’t know what of any of it is true. We don’t know if it’s staged–My first question is very basic: Isn’t a corona virus a cold virus?
DR: Yeah. A Coronavirus, in contrast with HIV, is a real bona fide virus. Nothing phony about a coronavirus. They’re very common. They cause upper respiratory diseases if they do anything at all. Like with any infectious agent, certainly upper respiratory agent, they get the old and the young first. And people in their late teens through their forties and starting into the fifties. In that era there, they’re very healthy and very resistant to just about any kind of infectious disease. If they get anything it’s mild.
CF: So a coronavirus– at some point in its history the virus was properly purified and a proper test was developed to test for its presence or absence is that right?
DR: Yeah. It’s very simple because you can actually take a sample of sputum or tissues from a person infected with Corona Virus and you can see those viral particles using electron microscope. That’s the gold standard of virology.
CF: Which, again, we cannot do anything like that with HIV.
DR: That’s right. People have tried. They cannot see HIV in samples.
CF: Is there any reason that you would think that people would just drop dead from coming in contact with coronavirus?
DR: No but I can tell you something that anybody can do on their own. I have an article here from Jan 24, 2020. At that time it says there were 41 fatalities total, in China. [Note: Number is higher now. Over 800.] The number’s so small you could know them all by name. I also looked up the population of China. It’s about 1.4 billion. You can look up the annual pneumonia death rate in any country in the world and I looked it up for China. [EDIT on Feb 13, 2020. I got an email from Dr. Rasnick alerting me to the fact that the numbers cited here are inaccurate. We will come back with adjusted numbers for annual pneumonia deaths in China.] And the other thing is we don’t know who these people are. Were they infants again, or were they very old people that typically die of pneumonia?
Or where the strong healthy people that should be in the healthiest years of their life?
We need more information. But the main thing people should bear in mind that these numbers are trivial.
CF: So the nature of a standard straight up classic coronavirus–it’s not that bad. It’s not deadly, it’s not Ebola.
DR: Most viruses are not. Ebola’s pretty bogus too. Take a flu virus, a typical flu virus you know okay you get a flu, you get sick, you have symptoms. The other thing about true infectious diseases which was true of SARS if it really was an infectious thing going on there is that they increase very rapidly, very rapidly on the order of weeks to months, peak and then decline very rapidly. My guess is HIV is the only supposedly contagious virally transmitted disease that has been plateaued for almost 4 decades at about 1 million Americans every year.
It’s the only supposedly infectious disease that does that. All other infectious diseases don’t do that. They spike and then they go away.
My guess is that by mid baseball season 2020, we’ll all have forgotten about this.
CF: Let’s touch on that briefly how the predictions of AIDS have panned out.
DR: Not a single prediction of the AIDS epidemic has come true. Not a single one. Africa went from I think, when it started, the whole population was like maybe a half a billion people or something like that. Now it’s over a billion people in Africa, most of them in Sub Saharan Africa. There is no evidence whatever of any contagious or unusual anything that’s interfered with population growth of Africa– southern Africa, where it’s supposed to be the center of AIDS. If anything there is a population explosion going on there and virtually everything we’ve been told about the AIDS epidemic is either an innocent falsehood or an out and out lie.
CF: Now, this time around in contrast to H. I. V., mainstream theory/ slash conspiracy theory is that Wuhan Corona is bio engineered and it got out either from a level 4 lab in Canada or in Wuhan. So the discussion isn’t really about natural viruses, but about bio engineered virus. And now they’re saying that they were four HIV proteins, or “inserts” in this supposedly bio engineered virus, so when you look at all of that—what do you glean from that?
DR: I tell you there’s so many things wrong with that. Let me tell you what I found. I tried to get that paper and guess what? The authors withdrew it. It’s been withdrawn. So there’s no point even talking about that one because it’s been withdrawn.
CF: People are asking me: These 4 proteins are they are they dangerous? These HIV proteins.
DR: No. No. No. No. If it’s an infectious agent, you have to have a replicating virus that will kill your cells.
And you have to have a sufficient number of cells that it infects and kills before you have any symptoms. You have to have a live replicating virus to work– those proteins are just part of the machinery of a replicating virus. All the virus cares about doing is replicating. And they have a very hard time doing that.
CF: So…have they ever bio engineered a really deadly virus?
DR: Well if they have it certainly not a retrovirus and it’s certainly not a Coronavirus . (laughs.)
I don’t know anything that may be hidden or secret or kept away for some place but viruses ..or you know the really deadly ones, the ones that will really kill you pretty quickly like smallpox and things like that. But there are no “super viruses” that are out there.
CF: Let’s name a few of the deadliest viruses you can think of.
DR: Well there was yellow fever. I mean there’s some pretty dangerous ones out there but interestingly enough, you know, a virus is a parasite and once you have a parasite living with a host, eventually the parasite goes away if the host goes away and they sort of learn to get along with each other at some point.
These things just naturally sort themselves out and if there are any of these weapons or anything out there like that– maybe they have some, but this is not anything like that. The numbers are so small. If it were a weapon it’s a trivial weapon. Like I said as of January 24 there were only 41 dead.
CF: They’re saying now it’s few hundred.
DR: Oh my goodness that changes everything!
Considering like I said 2.8 Million to 17 million Chinese die every year of pneumonia.
CF: That’s extraordinary. Are you allowed to speak to which of course I happen to know, how it came to be that you found out there was no HIV in human blood? I’ll just say what’s public knowledge as I have reported on: There was an organization called OMSJ. And one of the aims of OMSJ was to take people who were accused and or in prison over “HIV crimes.” OMSJ took on some cases including a very famous one that of Nushawn Williams who was said to be HIV infected and had sex with many fairly young girls that was the big notorious case back in the early nineties. He’s been in prison since—I believe he’s still in prison. My understanding of what you all did is that you obtained blood from people who were HIV positive and then you tested that blood on electron microscopy instead of just the antibody test. i.e. you went to the real..test.
DR: The gold standard
CF: Right. And when you did that there was no evidence of of HIV or of any retrovirus, am I right so far?
DR: Yeah. This was when we were collaborating with University of Massachusetts and they had…there was an electron microscopist there that we were collaborating with and I was one of the expert witnesses for these court cases and we used this electron microscopist to perform the electron microscopy on some of these samples of blood plasma that had viral loads for HIV– we can get into what the viral load nonsense is later– and sure enough there were no observable viral particles of any kind in their blood. Their blood was pretty clean and some of the viral loads were up into the millions you know and yet there were no viral particles that makes you wonder what in the world or are these viral load numbers that people are talking about?
CF: It sure does make you wonder.
DR: Electron microscopy is just a very powerful microscope. A regular light microscope that you use in high school or whatever, you can see bacteria and things like that, but you can’t see viruses with it. It’s not powerful enough. Viruses are so much smaller than bacteria.
Viruses are so much smaller than bacteria but with electron microscope you can see viral particles and things smaller than viruses I mean.. it’s just a very powerful microscope and they’ve been around since.. on a practical basis since the 1950s and they are they are the best tool in the world. In fact they were the tool of identifying viruses, viral particles, and to this day it is the gold standard. And the beauty of it is, it’s totally unbiased because it’s like a regular microscope. If something’s there you’ll see it; if it’s not there you won’t see it and you don’t have to have any bias about what you’re expecting to see. You’ll either see something that’s there or you won’t see it.
CF: People are talking about the genome of the Corona virus this is the new big mega scare. Have you had a chance to look at it and see if there’s anything you can see that is worth talking about in it?
DR: At our company Viral Forensics, I was not the electron microscopist but I got up to speed on these different viruses. There’s nothing really there. All the hoopla about this corona virus is that it’s really an epidemic, that it’s this thing that is exploding out of nowhere, as if it’s an honest to God fact. Nobody is questioning that. Or if they are they’re not able to get much coverage. Whenever they resort quickly to the technology, talking about genomes and about this and about that, it’s distracting from the big story, which is this: Is there or is there not an epidemic going on out there? Instead of talking about that we start talking about the genome. And everybody gets all riled up about corona virus, this horrible beast! It’s NOT a horrible beast. But as soon as they start jumping into all this techno-babble, you know there’s a coverup going on.
CF: Listen, just came on my screen…“Corona virus live updates NYT: China Death Toll Greater Than in SARS Outbreak…”
DR: Which was small by the way. SARS was small.
CF: Very dramatic photos of empty escalators…Officers..Oh, interesting…China Health Commission reports that there were 475 recoveries and 361 deaths nationwide. During the SARS outbreak, 349 people died in mainland China…
DR: Yeah, and that was what, 10 years ago? China still had about a billion people at that point. Those numbers are TRIVIAL. They mean nothing. The terrifying thing is that if the Globalist apparatus and media decide that there’s going to be a pandemic then darn it there’s going to be one. The scare IS the pandemic. That which spreads the fear. And that which affects lives, nations, economies and everything is the fear itself. The fear itself is the virus. And the beauty of the whole approach is, people rarely every question the medical institutions or the public health institutions. You’re just supposed to accept what they say is if it’s honest to God fact.
CF: When Gallo launched his government fiat proclamation that HIV caused AIDS, that was at least a very shabby causation model…Corona doesn’t seem to have anything. Not even a press conference. A paper. Nothing. You’re saying …a corona virus, straight up, flat field sunny day, is nothing to get excited about. It’s been around for a long time. But this corona virus is…some kind of souped up corona virus that is REALLY BAD. So where did it come from and where is its causation model, however shabby?
DR: Lord I don’t know but the thing of it is is that a “souped up corona virus…” Corona virus is endemic throughout the world. Then you have to say well it must be a “souped up” one in order for us to be up in arms about this “epidemic.” How would a run-of-the-mill corona virus lead to an epidemic? You’ve got to have something. That’s why they bring in all this genetic stuff.
CF: What do you mean bring in all this genetic stuff? Could you elaborate?
DR: To drive home the idea that it is a souped up virus.
CF: Which used to be the MOST scoffed at conspiracy theory that there’s such a thing as a bio-weapon. Now that’s the “normal” thing to think. And there was all this talk about bat soup, and snakes…
DR: Laughs. The whole thing is getting it into people’s minds that the epidemic is authentic and real and that misleads everybody into going whichever way they want to. The real bogus thing here is the notion that there is an epidemic at all. That’s the biggest lie of all. It’s the same old same old that we’ve been seeing for decades. Except they are honing their skills.
CF: Why do you think they’re doing it?
DR: Good question. But it puts a lot of pressure on China.
CF: Might have something to do with super dystopic future plans to get control of populations of cities.
DR: You might be right. The CDC and the WHO have their fingerprints all over this thing.
CF: AIDS was the same, which is why I am so opposed to Globalism. Their global, economic interests interlock. This is countered by things like nations and borders. They want total control of populations.
DR: I agree with that. It’s political. It has nothing to do with health and well being.
CF: Why is there no HIV vaccine?
DR: You have to have HIV before you can have an HIV vaccine. There have been thousands of trials….it’s a trillion dollar industry. I’m talking about everything. The drugs, the tests, the research, the insurance, all that stuff together, it’s a trillion dollars.
CF: Parting words about HIV..
DR: You gave to be suspicious.
CF: I would say think back on the terror campaigns all those decades. Did any of that come to pass? We are all supposed to be long dead. It was supposed to spread like wildfire. Sexually. Among heterosexuals and homosexuals alike.
DR: It takes a toll when people have this blased at them on a daily basis. What are they supposed to think?
CF: (reading) …the novel corona virus…
DR: Be suspicious, whenever you see the word “novel,” tied to any infectious agent or drug.
CF: Article says it has spread to 24 countries..the Wuhan corona virus. The virus might have jumped from animals to people at a food market in Wuhan.
DR: That kind of thing assumes there is an epidemic. It’s to instill in people that there is a bonafide epidemic to worry about. And there isn’t.
CF: Déjà vu: “Over the past few weeks we have witnessed the emergence of a previously unknown pathogen… We don’t know what this virus could do…we must act now…” Exactly what they said about AIDS. To the letter. Why aren’t people rejecting it because AIDS was a pack of lies? SARS, all of that was MINOR compared to the big big big one, which was AIDS.
DR: You know Celia, we didn’t fail. All our work against the HIV nonsense. You and I and a whole bunch of other people were hoping we could end it. But we still accomplished something. We documented how bogus it is. For future generations. I told people in the 90s…at least peopke 100 or 200 years from now will know that not everybody was crazy.